* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.
          [00:00:05]
           OKAY. 
          HI, I'M, YEP. 
          ARE THE MICS ON SHOT? OKAY, GOOD. 
          OKAY. 
          UM, SO MY NAME IS MIRIAM LANG BUDIN. 
          I AM A CHILDREN'S LIBRARIAN. 
          UM, MOST RECENTLY I WAS HEAD OF CHILDREN'S SERVICES AT THE CHAPPAQUA PUBLIC LIBRARY. 
          SERVED ON A LOT OF CHILDREN'S AWARD COMMITTEES, INCLUDING THE CALDECOTT TWICE AND NEWBERRY. 
          AND THIS IS MARTHA REGO. 
          UM, I'M MARTHA REGO. 
          UH, I AM THE VP CREATIVE DIRECTOR AT RANDOM HOUSE CHILDREN'S BOOKS, UH, WHICH IS JUST A FANCY WAY OF SAYING, I'M A BOOK DESIGNER AND I OVERSEE AN ART DEPARTMENT. 
          UM, I'VE BEEN IN PUBLISHING AS AN ART DIRECTOR FOR ALMOST 40 YEARS, AND MY NAME IS RONNIE SAUDER AND I AM A CHILDREN'S BOOK AUTHOR. 
          I JUST HAD MY 31ST BOOK PUBLISHED DRAGON DREAMS, AND A NEW ONE IS COMING ABOUT THE RAIL TRAIL THAT GOES THROUGH OUR TOWN, UH, NEXT THIS COMING SUMMER. 
          AND, UM, UH, OF COURSE A FAN OF ED'S AND, UM, YOU KNOW, SO MUCH TO SAY. 
          YEAH. 
          UH, MY NAME IS GARY GLIO, AND, UM, I'M AN AUTHOR OF PICTURE BOOKS, TWO OF WHICH I DID WITH MY BELOVED FRIEND, ED YOUNG, WHOM I MISS EVERY DAY. 
          AND, UH, I THINK WE SHOULD JUST TAKE A MOMENT JUST TO SAY HELLO, ED. 
          HELLO, ED. 
          AS I'M SURE I'M SURE HE IS HERE, , I'M SURE HE IS HERE IN SPIRIT IN SOME WAY OR OTHER. 
          UM, THE TWO BOOKS I DID WITH ED WERE CALLED BIRD AND DIZZ, ABOUT, UM, UH, HOW CHARLIE PARKER AND DIZZY GILLESPIE CREATED BEBOP TOGETHER. 
          AND THE OTHER BOOK IS CALLED SMILE, UM, AND IT'S ABOUT, UM, HOW CHARLIE CHAPLIN BECAME CHARLIE CHAPLIN. 
          OKAY. 
          SO, UM, WE THOUGHT PERHAPS SOME PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW A PICTURE BOOK COMES TO FRUITION, AND WE THOUGHT PERHAPS THE BEST PERSON ON THE PANEL TO TALK ABOUT THAT WOULD BE MARTHA. 
          AH, OKAY. 
          UM, WELL, IT, IT FOLLOWS GENERALLY THE SAME STEPS FOR EV FOR EVERY PUBLISHER, BUT THERE ARE ALWAYS DIFFERENCES. 
          PUBLISHER TO PUBLISHER, ESSENTIALLY, UH, YOU KNOW, MAKING A PICTURE BOOK PARTICULAR IS A, A COLLABORATIVE PROCESS. 
          THERE'S A TEAM, THERE'S THE AUTHOR AND THE EDITOR, THERE'S THE ARTIST AND THE ART DIRECTOR, DESIGNER SLASH DESIGNER. 
          AND THOSE PEOPLE HAVE TO COMMUNICATE REALLY WELL THROUGH EVERY PHASE OF THE PROJECT. 
          SO IT MIGHT BE THAT A MANUSCRIPT COMES TO AN EDITOR AND THE EDITOR SAYS TO THE ART DIRECTOR, WHO SHOULD ILLUSTRATE THIS, LET'S TALK. 
          AND THEN WE BRAINSTORM AND WE THINK OF WHAT, WHO THE RIGHT ARTIST IS. 
          AND THEN IT TAKES OFF FROM THERE. 
          UM, AND THE MANUSCRIPT IS GIVEN TO THE ILLUSTRATOR IF IT'S NOT THE SAME PERSON AS THE AUTHOR, UM, AND THEY THINK ABOUT IT, THEY SORT OF TAKE IT INTO THEIR SYSTEM, UM, AND THINK ABOUT WHAT KIND OF IMAGES ARE THE RIGHT IMAGES. 
          AND THEY CREATE A SKETCH DUMMY USUALLY, AND THEY KIND OF BREAK IT DOWN INTO IMAGES PAGE BY PAGE. 
          AND THE IDEA IS THAT I THINK FOR A REALLY SUCCESSFUL BOOK, PICTURE BOOK FOR CHILDREN, IT NEEDS TO BE A WHOLE, THERE ARE MANY PIECES TO IT, BUT EVERY PIECE REALLY HAS TO CLICK TO THE ONE BEFORE IT AND THE ONE AFTER IT. 
          SO AS A CUMULATIVE EXPERIENCE, IT'S AN EXPERIENCE THAT IS UNIQUE AND THEN ADDS UP TO SOMETHING THAT YOU DIDN'T EXPECT. 
          UM, AND THAT WAS SOMETHING, AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT EVERY ILLUSTRATOR GOES THROUGH WHEN THEY'RE PLOTTING OUT THE DUMMY. 
          AND THERE'S A CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE ART DIRECTOR AND THE ARTIST IN MAKING THOSE DECISIONS AND TALKING ABOUT THOSE DECISIONS THAT THEY'VE MADE AND CALLING OUT MAYBE WHERE THERE ARE PROBLEMS AND A DIFFERENT SOLUTION HAS TO BE, UM, DISCOVERED. 
          AND THIS IS ALSO A CONVERSATION WITH THE EDITOR AND EVEN WITH THE AUTHOR. 
          SO EVERYTHING IS KIND OF SHARED THROUGH EVERY PHASE. 
          ONCE THE DUMMY IS IN GOOD SHAPE, UM, THEN IT'S, UH, APPROVED TO GO TO ART, AND THEN THE ARTIST STARTS MAKING THE ART. 
          AND DEPENDING ON HOW THEY WORK, UM, THAT CAN TAKE SIX MONTHS. 
          THAT COULD TAKE TWO YEARS. 
          IT JUST DEPENDS ON HOW THEY WORK. 
          NOW, ED, WHEN I STARTED, MY FIRST JOB IN PUBLISHING WAS AT GP PUTNAM BIEL, AND ED WAS ALREADY, THIS WAS IN THE EIGHTIES, EARLY EIGHTIES, MIDDLE EIGHTIES, I GUESS. 
          UM, AND ED WAS ALREADY A PRETTY WELL ESTABLISHED ILLUSTRATOR. 
          HE HAD WON THE CALDECOTT FOR EMPEROR AND THE KITE IN 
          [00:05:01]
67. 
          UM, HE WAS ILLUSTRATING FOR A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT PUBLISHERS, AND, UM, HE WAS WORKING, I WAS THE ASSISTANT TO THE ART DIRECTOR, AND HE WAS WORKING ON FOOLISH RABBIT. 
          BIG MISTAKE. 
          SO I WAS VERY NEW TO PUBLISHING, AND I WOULD GO IN THE OFFICE AND HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF SITTING WITH THE ART DIRECTOR AND ED AS THEY WERE TALKING THROUGH THE IMAGES SKETCHES. 
          AND NANETTE STEVENSON, WHO WAS THE ART DIRECTOR, AND THE DESIGNER IN THIS BOOK, WOULD MAKE SUGGESTIONS AND TALK HIM THROUGH DETAILS. 
          AND THEN WE WOULD LOOK AT WHERE THE TYPE SHOULD GO. 
          AND MY JOB AS THE ASSISTANT WAS TO DO THE MECHANICALS. 
          SO, YOU KNOW, SPLICING THE LITTLE LINES ON THE BOXES SO THAT THEY LINED UP JUST RIGHT, UM, FIGURING OUT HOW BIG THEY SHOULD BE, MAKING SURE THE TYPE WAS SET IN THE PROPER WAY. 
          I JUST GOT FROM THE GROUND UP THOSE REALLY MECHANICAL THINGS THAT, THAT ARE WHAT A DESIGNER IS ALL ABOUT, WHAT BOOK DESIGN IS ALL ABOUT. 
          BUT THEN I GOT TO SORT OF SIT AT THE KNEE OF THE ART DIRECTION AND SEE WHAT AN ART DIRECTOR DOES, AND THEN HEAR WHAT THE CONVERSATIONS WERE LIKE BETWEEN THE EDITOR AND THE ART DIRECTOR. 
          UM, AND, UM, THE AUTHOR, RAY MARTIN, UM, WAS NOT SOMEBODY THAT I, I MET, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS SORT OF OUT OF MY DOMAIN. 
          UM, AFTER A FEW YEARS, I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF WORKING WITH ED AS A DESIGNER, AND I, UM, WAS ABLE TO WORK ON, OH, I THINK I HAVE IT. 
          UH, YEAH, THIS ONE, CATS ARE CATS. 
          UM, AND IN THIS CASE, THIS IS A, A COLLECTION OF POEMS, UM, COMPILED BY NANCY LYRIC. 
          AND, UM, HE SKETCHED THIS OUT. 
          AND SO AS THE DESIGNER, I GAVE HIM LAYOUTS AND SHOWED HIM WHERE THE TYPE WOULD GO ON EVERY PAGE. 
          AND HE, YOU KNOW, UM, COMPOSED EVERY IMAGE SO THAT IT WOULD FIT TO WHERE THE TYPE WOULD GO, BUT WAS ALSO WHAT HIS VISION WAS, WHAT THE IMAGES SHOULD BE, HOW THE IMAGES CONNECT PAGE TO PAGE, HOW THEY ACCUMULATE TO THE END. 
          UM, AND ONE OF THE KIND OF SURPRISING THINGS THAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE WORKING WITH AN ARTIST, ESPECIALLY SOMEBODY LIKE ED, WHO'S CONTINUALLY REINVENTING HIS VISION AT HIS VOCABULARY, HIS USING ALL THESE DIFFERENT MEDIUMS. HE HAD BEEN FOR EMPEROR AND THE KITE, HE'D BEEN USING CUT PAPER FOR THIS. 
          HE WAS USING PASTELS. 
          AND FOR THIS, HE, HE CAME IN SORT OF TO OUR SURPRISE WITH ROLLS OF, UH, BUTCHER PAPER THAT HE HAD DONE THESE CHARCOAL DRAWINGS ON. 
          AND, YOU KNOW, THE CHARCOAL WAS FLYING IN THE AIR AND WHAT YOUR BABY WAS HAVING. 
          NANETTE AND I WERE JUST LIKE, OH, WOW, HOW ARE WE GOING TO DEAL WITH THIS? BUT IT WAS SO STUNNING AND, UM, EXCITING THAT WE WERE GAME LIKE, ED WANTS TO DO THIS, WE'RE GONNA FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THIS. 
          AND, UH, WHEN THE PROOFS CAME BACK, UM, YOU KNOW, WE DID FIGURE OUT HOW TO SCAN IT IN THOSE DAYS. 
          WE WOULD SEND THE ACTUAL ARTWORK TO CHINA TO HAVE IT SCANNED, AND THEN THEY WOULD SEND PROOFS BACK WITH THE ART SO THAT WE COULD CHECK THE PROOFS AGAINST THE ART. 
          AND, UM, WE SORT OF HAD THIS DIFFICULTY, UM, WITH THIS PAPER, UM, IN, IN PRINTING FOUR COLOR ART. 
          IT'S CALLED FOUR COLOR ART, BECAUSE THE ART IS SEPARATED INTO CMYK, CYAN, MAGENTA, YELLOW, BLACK. 
          SO A GAZILLION COLORS IS, ARE MADE UP OF JUST THESE FOUR INKS, GREENED AND PRINTED TOGETHER. 
          SO THIS BROWN, THAT'S THE BUTCHER PAPER ON EVERY PAGE SHOULD BE EXACTLY THE SAME COLOR, BUT IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF PRINTING. 
          WHEN THE INK IS RUNNING THROUGH A PRESS, THERE'S ALL THIS VARIATION. 
          AND, UM, EVEN THOUGH IT'S THE SAME INKS AND THE SAME SCREENS WHEN IT'S LIVE INK ON PAPER SINKING INTO SOMETHING POROUS, IT JUST CHANGES. 
          SO THAT WAS SORT OF LIKE THIS SURPRISE PRODUCTION HEADACHE THAT WE HAD. 
          AND THAT'S ANOTHER, I MEAN, THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS, AND YOU KIND OF ROLL WITH IT AND YOU DO THE BEST. 
          AND NANETTE WENT ON PRESS AND MADE SURE THAT IT LOOKED AS GOOD AS IT COULD POSSIBLY LOOK, AND IT TURNED OUT REALLY VERY BEAUTIFULLY. 
          BUT THAT'S SORT OF THE, THE UNKNOWN OF, OF BOOKMAKING AND PRINTING, WHICH I SORT OF LOVE. 
          IT'S THE HAPPY ACCIDENTS AND THE SURPRISES THAT SORT OF GIVE YOU SOMETHING THAT YOU, AS MUCH AS YOU PLAN FOR, WE HAVE THIS WHOLE SYSTEM OF HOW WE'RE GONNA, YOU KNOW, OKAY, THE ART AND OKAY IT FOR PROOFS, AND THEN IT GOES TO THE PRINTER, AND THEN YOU JUST CROSS YOUR FINGERS THAT YOU'RE GONNA GET SOMETHING THAT YOU, THAT YOU REALLY WANT. 
          UM, SO 
          [00:10:01]
THAT'S THE, THE SORT OF CONDENSED, LENGTHY, BUT CONDENSED VERSION OF HOW YOU MAKE A BOOK AND, UM, HOW IT WAS LIKE WITH THAT. 
          GREAT. 
          OKAY. 
          UM, WE'LL GO DOWN TO THE OTHER END TO START. 
          UM, AND, UH, GARY, IS THERE A PARTICULAR BOOK OF EDS THAT HAS RESONANCE FOR YOU MORE THAN OTHERS? OR TWO, TWO PERHAPS. 
          YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING, UH, IF I MAY 1ST, UH, IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, UM, I, I HAPPEN TO HAVE A, A REAL LOVE FOR CATS OR CATS, AND IF PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED, TAKE A LOOK AT THE BOOK. 
          I, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAVE MORE COPIES OVER THERE, BUT TWO OF THE ORIGINALS, ONE BACK THERE, AND THERE'S ONE OVER THERE. 
          AND I REMEMBER THIS WAS RIGHT AT THE TIME ED GOT MARRIED. 
          UH, AND I REMEMBER BEING AT THE WEDDING, AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT CATS OR CATS. 
          I WENT TO A STUDIO AND I SAW THESE PASTEL, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF IT WAS PASTEL WITH CHARCOAL, AND THEY WERE JUST SO EXQUISITE. 
          I LOVE CATS. 
          SO, UM, IF YOU GET A CHANCE, TAKE A LOOK AT THAT ONE THERE, THAT'S BLUE, THAT'S LIKE HAD IN THE MOONLIGHT ON THE FAR RIGHT NEAR THE DOOR. 
          I MEAN, IT'S ALMOST LIKE ANGEL DUST. 
          I DON'T MEAN A DRUG EITHER. 
          I MEAN, , IT IS LIKE BUTTER. 
          THE, THE DUST ON A BUTTERFLY'S WINGS, THE WAY HE JUST KIND OF DROPS IT ONTO THE PAPER. 
          HE'S AMAZING. 
          UM, I MET ED YOUNG. 
          UM, I WAS A VISUAL ARTIST FOR MANY YEARS. 
          I WAS A LANDSCAPE PAINTER IN, UM, IT WAS KIND OF A, IF YOU LOOKED AT MY WORK, I GUESS YOU WOULD'VE THOUGHT IT WAS KIND OF A COMBINATION OF GEORGE INNIS, IMPRESSIONISM AND ASIAN PAINTING. 
          AND SO ED, ED RESONATED. 
          WE, WE UNDERSTOOD EACH OTHER ON A KIND OF A, AN ARTISTIC LEVEL RIGHT AWAY. 
          BUT I FIRST MET HIM, MY WIFE AND I, WHEN WE STARTED TAKING TAI CHI WITH HIM IN 1979. 
          AND TO THIS DAY, WHEN I SAY THESE PEOPLE SAY, WELL, HOW DID YOU KNOW ED? I SAID, OH, HE WAS MY TAI CHI TEACHER. 
          THEY'RE LIKE, WHAT? BUT HE WAS, UH, HE WAS ONE OF THE SENIOR STUDENTS FOR THE MAN WHO BROUGHT A CERTAIN STYLE OF TAI CHI, WHICH IS A MEDITATIVE MOVING PHYSICAL ART FORM, UM, THAT YOU DO WITH YOUR BODY. 
          UM, AND HE WAS ONE OF THE SENIOR STUDENTS OF CHANG MAN CHING, WHO BROUGHT THAT STYLE TO THIS COUNTRY FROM TAIWAN. 
          UH, ALSO, YOU KNOW, MASTER CHANG WAS CHINESE, BUT, UH, AS WAS ED. 
          AND ED CAME HERE, HE WAS FAIRLY YOUNG. 
          HE CAME TO THIS COUNTRY AND HE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE A SENSE OF SOME OF THE TRADITIONS, UH, ARTISTIC AND PHILOSOPHICAL, UH, THAT WERE PART OF THE CHINESE CULTURE. 
          AND IT WAS PROFESSOR CHANG WHO KIND OF REAWAKENED THESE THINGS IN HIM. 
          AND YOU SEE THIS IN THE BOOKS. 
          UH, WE WOULD HAVE TO TAKE TIME TO GO THROUGH ALL OF THIS. 
          BUT ANYWAY, UM, SO I DIDN'T REALLY, I WASN'T PLANNING TO DO THIS, BUT I THINK I WILL, THAT AS I JUST QUICKLY TELL YOU ABOUT THE TWO BOOKS I DID WITH ED, I'M GOING TO SORT OF, UM, REFER TO THE FACT THAT ED'S LIFE, UH, REALLY, UH, AT, AT THE CORE OF ED'S LIFE WAS AN UNDERSTANDING OF TAI CHI, WHICH IS BASED ON TAOISM. 
          TAOISM IS A VERY ANCIENT PHILOSOPHY, WHICH MANY OF YOU, I'M SURE WILL, YOU KNOW, IMMEDIATELY UNDERSTAND. 
          IT HAS TO DO WITH, UM, LOOKING AT THE UNIVERSE AND THE WORLD AND, AND THE ENERGY THAT MOVES THROUGH THE WORLD IN, IN PLANTS AND PEOPLE, AND LIGHT AND DARKNESS. 
          AND IT'S ABOUT ALL OF THE ENERGIES THAT, THAT MANIFEST THEMSELVES IN LIFE. 
          AND THE FACT THAT LIFE, THERE'S A UNITY TO LIFE, THAT ANIMALS AND PEOPLE, INSECTS, TREES, CLOUDS, EVERYTHING IS PART OF ONE. 
          AND, UH, THERE ARE THREE JEWELS. 
          IT'S CALLED THE THREE JEWELS. 
          UM, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE, UM, ENCOURAGED TO EMBRACE THE, THE FLOW OF THIS ENERGY THAT MOVES THROUGH THE UNIVERSE CALLED THE DAO, AND TO EXPRESS THEIR CONNECTION, THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF UNITY WITH OTHER PEOPLE AND THINGS IN TERMS OF COMPASSION AND MODERATION, AND BEING HUMBLE. 
          WELL, ED HAD AN INCREDIBLE SENSE OF HUMOR, UH, BUT IF YOU KNEW HIM, YOU KNEW THAT YOU KNEW THAT HE WAS COMPASSIONATE AND THAT HE WAS VERY HUMBLE, UH, AND HE FELT THAT, AS MARTHA SAID, A BOOK WAS A UNION OF ELEMENTS. 
          HE, HE SAID, PICTURES, SOUNDS, WORDS. 
          NONE OF THEM ALONE CAN CONVEY THE ENTIRE EXPRESSION. 
          SO I SHOW HOW THEY WORK TOGETHER IN A BOOK. 
          I THINK THAT ART IS ONE AREA WHERE ONE CAN CREATE SOMETHING THAT IS MUCH MORE WHOLE. 
          AH, I LOVE IT. 
          [00:15:01]
AND, UM, IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING THE BOOK, AS HE WAS GIVEN THIS TEXT, ONE OF HIS RULES WAS, OR IT WAS ONE OF HIS PRINCIPLES, INHABITING OR BECOMING THE CHARACTER. 
          SO ED WAS THIS CAT. 
          HE WAS FOOLISH RABBIT, IF YOU KNEW ED. 
          THE BEAUTY I FELT, 'CAUSE HE WAS VERY PLAYFUL. 
          I LOVED BEING PLAYFUL. 
          UH, ONE OF THE BEAUTIES OF ED YOUNG WAS THAT, UH, HE REVELED IN PLAY, MAKING A BOOK WAS PLAYFUL. 
          AND, UH, I WROTE A BOOK CALLED BIRD AND DIZ, AND IT WAS ABOUT CHAR. 
          I LOVE JAZZ, AND I, I PLAY INSTRUMENTS AND STUFF. 
          SO, UH, IT WAS ABOUT CHARLIE PARKER, KNOWN AS BIRD AND JOHN GILLESPIE, KNOWN AS DIZZY, DIZZY GILLESPIE, HOW THEY CAME TOGETHER IN THE EARLY FORTIES TO CREATE THIS THING WE CALL BEBOP JAZZ. 
          IT WAS VERY FAST, IT WAS PLAYFUL. 
          UH, CHARLIE AND, UH, DIZZY WOULD LOOK AT EACH OTHER, YOU KNOW, THEY'D GIVE EACH OTHER THESE SIDEWARD LOOKS AND THEY'D MAKE FUNNY FACES. 
          AND, UM, DIZZY LATER SAID, WE WERE, UM, TWO HEARTS, ONE HEARTBEAT. 
          THAT'S HOW INTEGRATED THEY WERE IN TERMS OF THEIR SENSE OF WHERE THE MUSIC WAS GOING. 
          AND SO I WANTED TO CONVEY THIS IN A BOOK. 
          AND I, I SAID TO ED, HE SAID, WHAT ARE YOU WORKING ON? AND I SAID, OH, I JUST DID THIS THING, YOU KNOW, I KNOW YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT JAZZ, BUT HE SAID, NO, SEND IT TO ME. 
          SO I, I SENT IT TO HIM, AND A WEEK LATER, I GET THIS, THIS, I PICK UP THE PHONE, THE PHONE RINGS, AND I PICK IT UP AND I HEAR ARE, AND I SAID, ED. 
          AND HE SAID, I THINK YOU NEED TO COME AND SEE WHAT YOU'VE DONE. 
          AND SO I WENT DOWN TO HIS HOUSE AND ONCE AGAIN, REFERRING TO SOMETHING MARTHA WAS TALKING ABOUT, IN HIS STUDIO WAS A TABLE ON, ON A, IT WAS A BEVELED TABLE. 
          HE WORKED ON PIECE THE NARRATION BOOK TO PUT ALL THE IMAGES TOGETHER, SEE IF THEY FLOWED TOGETHER. 
          SO THIS IS LIKE THE DOW ALSO FLOW OF . 
          AND IT WAS 24 FEET LONG. 
          HE HAD THE BUTCHER PAPER THERE IN A, IN A SCROLL. 
          AND I DIDN'T KNOW, HE TOLD ME, YOU KNOW, I DO A LOT OF, I DO THE ORIGINAL BOOK ROLE THAT IS HUGE CHINESE. 
          AND SO WHEN THE EDITOR FIRST OF ALL SAW WOW, HE USED SUMI INK, WHICH IS A BLACK, UM, JAPANESE INC BASED ON EARTH CHARCOAL. 
          IT'S USED FOR LANDSCAPING, TO WHICH HE ADDED PASTEL AS HE HAD, HE HAD BECOME VERY FOND OF PASTEL. 
          I USED TO DO A LOT OF WORK, . 
          UM, SO HE DID THIS SCROLL, MAYBE YOU COULD CALL ME HERE. 
          AND SO THIS WAS THIS, YOU KNOW, THEY PRINTED IT AS A SCROLL, BUT IT WAS 24 FEET TALL. 
          WELL, WHAT'S TRUE, WHEN YOU GET TO THE END OF IT, YOU READ ONE SIDE AND YOU TURN IT OVER ON THE TABLE OR THE FLOOR, IF YOUR KID, AND YOU SEE THE OTHER ON THE OTHER SIDE, EVEN THOUGH THE TEXT IS HERE THAT I WROTE, ED WAS ALSO TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO CREATE WHAT  I LOVE. 
          I, UH, USED TO HAVE THESE LIKE LUCID DREAMS. THE ONCE HAD A LUCID DREAM THAT ED AND I HAD MONKS TOGETHER,  IN CHINA. 
          AND WHEN I TOLD PHIL AMINA, HIS BELOVED WIFE PASSED YEARS AGO, HE SAID, WELL, THAT MAKES SENSE. 
          YOU TWO ARE LIKE, HE SAID, ED IS CHEAP AND YOU ARE TOO. 
          YOU KNOW, HE SAID, YOU'RE JUST LIKE MONKS. 
          UM, SO THE LAST THING I WILL SAY, 'CAUSE I WANT RONNIE TO HAVE HER TIME HERE, IS, UM, SO THE, YOU KNOW, I, I READ A LOT OF INTERVIEWS THAT ED DID. 
          I, I READ ONLINE, I WATCHED HIM, AND I, YOU KNOW, IT WAS ALL FAMILIAR TO ME. 
          I COULD HEAR ED'S VOICE, AND SOMETIMES I ACTUALLY DID HEAR ED'S VOICE. 
          SO ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PRINCIPLES IN TERMS OF ED'S SENSE OF MAKING A BOOK EITHER AS WRITER OR ILLUSTRATOR, WAS COLLABORATION. 
          AND IT GOES BACK TO SOMETHING MARTHA SAID. 
          THE EDITOR, THE AUTHOR, THE ARTIST, AND THE ART DIRECTOR, HE FELT CREATED A HARMONY TOGETHER BECAUSE THEY WORKED WITH A COMMON PURPOSE. 
          AND HE SAID, EVERYONE INVOLVED IS IN SERVICE TO THE STORY. 
          AH, AND 
          [00:20:01]
THE HUMILITY IN THAT, IT'S JUST, IT'S SO, IT HAPPENS TO BE VERY CHINESE, BUT IT'S ALSO, UM, AND HE SAID, A BOOK IS A UNION OF ELEMENTS, AND YOU NEED TO INHABIT OR BECOME THE CHARACTERS. 
          HE SAID, I TRY TO TAKE THE TIME TO FIND THE SOUL OF A STORY I ILLUSTRATE. 
          IT'S REALLY PLAY. 
          YOU DON'T GET DOWN TO MAKE SOMETHING FIRM UNTIL ALL THE PIECES START TO TALK TO YOU, AND THEN YOU LISTEN. 
          OH GOSH. 
          I MEAN, WHO SAYS STUFF LIKE THAT? I MEAN, THAT'S JUST GREAT, RIGHT? UM, I THINK ONE OUGHT TO BE OPEN TO THE MANY DIFFERENT WAYS PEOPLE LIVE TODAY THAT'S REALLY RESONATES, RIGHT? IF ONE CAN ACTUALLY PUT ONESELF IN THOSE PEOPLE'S SHOES, LIKE SADKO AND THE THOUSAND CRANES ABOUT THE GIRL WHO WAS, UM, IN, IN, UM, HIROSHIMA WHEN, WHEN BOMB WAS, UM, IF ONE CAN ACTUALLY PUT ONESELF IN THOSE PEOPLE'S SHOES, ONE CAN COME AWAY BECOMING A BIGGER PERSON, UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE THINK, FEEL THE WAY THEY DO. 
          I DON'T THINK I NEED TO SAY MORE ABOUT THAT. 
          UM, HE USED THE SCROLL BECAUSE HE LIKED TO TAKE A WIDE VIEW OF THE STORY. 
          HE SAID, ILLUSTRATING CHILDREN'S BOOKS IS LIKE MAKING A MOVIE. 
          AND IN LINE WITH TAI CHI, HE SAID, I MAKE BOOKS FOR SELF-EXPLORATION, SELF-KNOWLEDGE, ART DEPENDS UPON SELF-EXPLORATION AND SELF-KNOWLEDGE. 
          ART IS ABOUT THE SAME THING FOR ME AS TAI CHI FINDING OUT ABOUT YOURSELF. 
          IMAGINE THAT WHATEVER YOU DID IN LIFE, WHETHER YOU BELIEVED IN CHRISTIANITY OR JUDAISM OR, UH, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER IT IS, THAT WAS YOUR PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE THAT YOU DID, THAT YOU BROUGHT THAT SENSE OF THINGS TO YOUR, YOUR WORK, YOUR CAREER. 
          THAT'S WHAT ED WAS DOING. 
          HE, EVERYTHING THAT WAS ED WAS ED EVERYWHERE. 
          AND EVERYTHING HE DID. 
          SO HE SAID, I THINK ABOUT MY WORK, EACH WORK DAY, SOMETIMES NOTHING IS PUT DOWN ON PAPER. 
          THE ONLY ROUTINE I HAVE IS GETTING UP AT SIX O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING AND GOING TO BED AROUND 10. 
          WHAT HAPPENS IN THE MIDDLE IS NOT PREDICTABLE. 
          WHEN I GET STUCK, I JUST DO SOMETHING ELSE. 
          I READ SOMETHING, TAKE A WALK OR VISIT WITH SOME PEOPLE. 
          I TRUST THAT STUCKNESS IS SOMETHING THAT IS GIVEN TO ME TO HELP ME GROW A BIT. 
          AH, I CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF THIS STUFF, YOU KNOW? UM, BUT LET'S, LET'S LET RONNIE SAY SOMETHING. 
          LET'S RONNIE TAKE OVER. 
          OKAY. 
          OKAY. 
          WELL, RONNIE DID, RONNIE DID NOT HAVE THE, THE, THE GREAT GIFT OF HAVING ED ILLUSTRATE ANY OF MY BOOKS, SADLY. 
          SO, SECOND BEST IS MY ANECDOTE. 
          AND I HAVE A CRIB SHEET HERE BECAUSE THE FEW PEOPLE HERE THAT I'VE TOLD THE FULL STORY TO, IT GOES ON AND ON AND IS WONDERFUL. 
          AND THIS TOO LONG THING IS AN EXCERPT OF EDITING OUT OTHER PARTS OF THE STORY. 
          ONE DAY I WILL TELL YOU THE WHOLE REST OF THE STORY, BUT, UM, MY OLDEST FRIEND, UM, WHO I MET WHEN I WAS 14, UM, AND WHO HAS LIVED FOR MANY YEARS IN LONDON, OR RATHER IN ENGLAND, UM, HAD THREE YOUNGER BROTHERS. 
          AND THE BABY BROTHER I MET WHEN HE WAS THREE, AND WE WERE, YOU KNOW, ABOUT 14. 
          UM, I'M SKIPPING A WHOLE LOT OF THE STORY, BUT AT A CERTAIN POINT, UM, HE ENDED UP IN JAPAN DOING SOME TEACHING. 
          HIS NAME IS MARK. 
          OKAY? EXCUSE ME, MARK STEIN. 
          SO YOU KIND OF KNOW THE END OF THE STORY. 
          UM, HE FROM JAPAN, HE SENT ME A MANUSCRIPT THAT HE HAD WRITTEN. 
          HE HAD NEVER WRITTEN ANYTHING FOR CHILDREN BEFORE, BUT HE KNEW I WROTE CHILDREN'S BOOKS. 
          SO HE SENT ME A MANUSCRIPT AND HE WAS VERY EXCITED. 
          HE SAID, I HAVE A JAPANESE FRIEND HERE, WHICH IS ALREADY STARTED ILLUSTRATING THE BOOK. 
          UM, AND I JUST WANTED TO SEE WHAT YOU HAD TO SAY. 
          AND THERE FOR PICTURE BOOKS, THERE IS A LIMIT OF WORDS, WHICH IS EVEN MORE LIMITED THESE DAYS THAN IT ONCE WAS. 
          AND THERE'S A FORMAT. 
          AND, UM, AND HE DIDN'T KNOW IT. 
          SO, YOU KNOW, SHOOT THE MESSENGER. 
          I HAD TO BE THE MESSENGER. 
          SO I TOLD HIM WHAT I COULD TELL HIM, AND HE WAS YOUNG AND HE WAS MIFFED, AND I NEVER, YEAH, I DIDN'T HEAR FROM HIM FOR SEVERAL YEARS. 
          THE YEARS WENT BY AND, UM, I GOT A CALL FROM MY, MY FRIEND, HIS, HIS BIG SISTER AND FROM ENGLAND SAYING, YOU KNOW, MARK HAS GOTTEN A TEACHING JOB, AND I THINK IT'S SOMEWHERE NEAR YOU SOME PLACE CALLED THE MASTER SCHOOL. 
          SO I SAID, I COULD EVEN WALK THERE. 
          UM, AND HE SLOWLY ROSE TO HEAD OF THE ENGLISH DEPARTMENT. 
          HE'S, HE WAS A WONDERFUL TEACHER. 
          UM, DURING THAT TIME, HE 
          [00:25:01]
SENT ME, HE SAID, DO YOU REMEMBER THAT MANUSCRIPT I SENT YOU YEARS AGO? WELL, I, I WAS TOO YOUNG TO LISTEN, BUT NOW I HAVE, AND I'VE REWRITTEN IT. 
          CAN YOU, WOULD YOU MIND LOOKING AT IT AGAIN? AND HE SENT ME LOBBY SABI. 
          AND, UM, I READ IT AND I THOUGHT IT WAS PERFECT. 
          AND I THOUGHT IMMEDIATELY OF ED, AND I THOUGHT, I THINK ED WOULD LOVE THIS BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT THE CONCEPT, THE JAPANESE CONCEPT OF FINDING THE BEAUTY IN THE ORDINARY. 
          AND, UM, BUT HOW, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO I DO? CALL ED AND SAY, ED, A BABY BROTHER OF MY OLDEST FRIENDS, SHE'D WRITTEN A, A MANUSCRIPT. 
          CAN YOU, YOU KNOW? I THOUGHT THAT'S NOT GONNA WORK. 
          SO, UM, AND I EVEN THOUGHT OF AN EDITOR, LVNA LING, WHO SEEMED TO BE PERFECT. 
          'CAUSE I HAD WORKED WITH HER, UM, ON ONE OF MY BOOKS. 
          SHE WAS AT LITTLE BROWN, SHE IS AT LITTLE BREAD. 
          SO, UM, BUT ANYWAY, THEN IN THOSE DAYS AT SUNNYSIDE, THERE WAS A CHILDREN'S FESTIVAL THAT'S NOW MORPHED INTO THE GIGANTIC, UM, CHAPEL CLUB BOOK FESTIVAL. 
          AND ED WAS ONE OF THE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO SIGNED BOOKS THERE. 
          AND SO WAS I. 
          AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, MARK SHOWS UP WITH HIS CLASS FROM THE MASTER SCHOOL, AND THERE'S MARK, AND THERE'S ED, AND THERE'S ME, AND HOW AM I GONNA DO THIS? AND, UM, AND I'M A LITTLE BIT SHY, SO I WAS, YOU KNOW, I'M VERY NERVOUS ABOUT THIS. 
          AND I WALKED UP TO ED AND ALL OF A SUDDEN I THOUGHT, DO IT THIS WAY. 
          DON'T SAY, ED, YOU NEED TO JUST, YOU KNOW, DON'T SAY MARK, YOU NEED TO MEET ED. 
          SAY, ED, YOU NEED TO MEET MARK STEIN. 
          HE HAS A MANUSCRIPT THAT I THINK YOU GONNA, SO HE DID. 
          HE LIKED IT. 
          AND, UM, WABISABI WAS THEN WRITTEN AND, UM, AND IT'S MAGNIFICENT. 
          IT'S, YOU KNOW, AND I WAS THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW DO WE DESCRIBE WHAT ED DOES IN ALL OF HIS BOOKS? AND IT'S SURPRISING AND IT'S IMAGINATIVE, AND IT'S AMAZING, AND IT'S ALWAYS DIFFERENT, AND IT'S ALWAYS DIFFERENT. 
          SO ANYWAY, THEY COLLABORATED ON THIS BOOK. 
          IT WAS A BIG SUCCESS. 
          UM, AND PS UM, I JUST WANNA MAKE SURE, OKAY. 
          YEAH. 
          AND THEN LATER ON THEY DID THIS BOOK TOGETHER, AND MARK'S MOTHER, MY FRIEND, AND, AND HIS MOTHER, UM, SADLY HAD CANCER. 
          I GOT CANCER WHEN MARK WAS A LITTLE KID AND WAS ALWAYS ABOUT TO DIE, BUT SHE MANAGED TO LIVE, BUT THEN SHE DID EVENTUALLY DIE. 
          SO HE HAD LOSS IN HIS LIFE. 
          AND HE WROTE THIS STORY, WHICH IS VERY BEAUTIFUL ABOUT LOSS, AND SENT IT TO ED. 
          AND ED, OF COURSE, HAD LOST PHIL AMINA. 
          SO THIS WAS ANOTHER BOOK THEY DID TO TOGETHER. 
          AND SO I, YOU KNOW, I FEEL LIKE THERE'S ANOTHER KIND OF MEETING THAT I'VE MADE IN MY LIFE, WHICH I WON'T TELL YOU ABOUT NOW, BUT I WANT THAT ON MY TOMBSTONE. 
          THIS ON MY TOMBSTONE. 
          BUT PS MARK THEN MOVED TO CALIFORNIA AND REMARRIED. 
          AND, UM, I WENT, WE WENT TO, MY HUSBAND AND I WENT TO HIS WEDDING, AND THERE WE MET ONE OF HIS FRIENDS WHO WAS ANOTHER CHILDREN'S BOOK ILLUSTRATOR NAMED CHRISTY HALE. 
          AND, UM, YEAH. 
          AND MARTHA HAS TOLD ME AMAZINGLY, A WHOLE OTHER COINCIDENCE HERE. 
          AND, UM, WE BECAME FRIENDLY AND STAYED IN TOUCH, EVEN THOUGH SHE LIVES IN CALIFORNIA. 
          AND, UM, I DISCOVERED TO MY AMAZEMENT THAT SHE HAD ONCE LIVED IN BROOKLYN NEXT DOOR TO ED, AND HER DAUGHTER KATE, WAS GOOD FRIENDS WITH, UM, ANANDA AND ANTONIA. 
          SO THAT WAS AMAZING. 
          I HAVE A NEW BOOK, AS I SEE QUICKLY MENTION COMING OUT IN, IN THE SUMMER. 
          UM, AND IT ISN'T SO OFTEN THAT THE WRITER CAN SUGGEST THE ILLUSTRATOR. 
          IT CAN SUGGEST THE ILLUSTRATOR, BUT YOU HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, NOT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO BOW TO THE ART DIRECTION AND SO ON. 
          BUT I SUGGESTED CHRISTIE HALE AND FOR THE ILLUSTRATION, OR OF THIS FORTHCOMING BOOK, AND THAT'S WHO'S ILLUSTRATE HAS ILLUSTRATED MY BOOK. 
          AND, UM, SHE HAS DEDICATED HER PART OF HER, HER DEDICATION IS DEDICATED TO ED AND MINA. 
          SO IT'S A KIND OF LOVELY CIRCLE, AND THERE'S MORE TO THE STORY, WHICH I LEFT OUT, AND IT'S ALL, BUT NOT RIGHT NOW. 
          NO, NO. 
          LET'S SHUT UP. 
          SO, BUT IT'S A CIRCLE OF LOVE. 
          AND SO, OKAY. 
          WE'LL TALK LATER. 
          YEAH, . 
          OKAY. 
          SO, UM, UH, I WAS GONNA ASK, UH, MARTHA, IF THERE WAS ANOTHER BOOK BESIDES THE TWO THAT YOU SPOKE ABOUT THAT, UM, YOU HAVE A PARTICULAR FEELING FOR? YEAH, I, I DO, WELL THAT I, I HAVE PARTICULAR FEELINGS ABOUT ALL OF THEM. 
          ALL. 
          UM, THEY'RE LIKE CHILDREN,  
          [00:30:01]
MY CHILDREN, UM, LIKE MAYBE MY, WELL, I'LL, I'M GOING TO CHEAT AND GIVE YOU TWO. 
          ARE YOU TWO? YEAH. 
          UM, AFTER I MOVED ON FROM, UM, PUTNAM AND BECAME THE ART DIRECTOR AT HENRY HOLT, I WAS THEN ABLE TO HIRE ED AS AN ILLUSTRATOR FOR PROJECT THAT I HAD. 
          SO I, I HIRED HIM FOR THIS BOOK, UM, WHICH HE WROTE HAT AND RAT, A LEGEND OF, AND HE, AND AGAIN, HE, HE KIND OF, I, I THINK I HAD IT IN MY HEAD THAT HE WOULD CONTINUE TO WORK ON BUTCHER PAPER IN PASTEL, BUT HE KIND OF EXPANDED THAT AND WORKED ON ALL DIFFERENT KINDS OF BEAUTIFUL PAPER, UM, WITH PASCAL. 
          AND, UM, THIS IS THE STORY OF THE CHINESE ZODIAC. 
          AND, UM, HE DID A PHENOMENAL JOB, VERY MUCH KIND OF IN THE, IN THE, IN THE FEELING THAT WAS KIND OF KICKED OFF BY CATS OR CATS, AND THEN THE FOLLOW UP TO THAT, WHICH WAS MICE OR NICE. 
          BUT HE JUST HAD REALLY, HE JUST REALLY GOT INTO TEXTURE AND TONAL EFFECTS ON DIFFERENT KINDS OF PAPER IN A, IN JUST SUCH A BEAUTIFUL WAY. 
          SO THIS WAS REALLY JUST SUCH A INCREDIBLE, SATISFYING EXPERIENCE TO, UM, BE ABLE TO WORK WITH HIM KIND OF AS A, AS AN EQUAL IN A WAY, YOU KNOW? AND STARTING OUT AS AN ASSISTANT TO THE ART DIRECTOR WAS SUCH AWE OF HIM. 
          HE SEEMED VERY KIND OF SERIOUS, A LITTLE SCARY AND KIND OF, YOU KNOW, AWKWARD FOR ME TO SAY ANYTHING. 
          UM, BUT I HAD REALLY KIND OF GROWN AND GOTTEN OLDER, AND HE TRUSTED ME, AND WE, WE JUST FOUND THAT WE WORKED REALLY WELL TOGETHER, AND IT WAS SO, SO MUCH FUN AND SO SATISFYING. 
          AND THEN I SAW THAT HE REALLY DID HAVE A GREAT SENSE OF HUMOR AND A SENSE OF WAY, LIKE A REAL, HE LOVED A GOOD JOKE. 
          HE TOLD A GREAT STORY. 
          HE, HE WAS, HE WAS UNAFRAID. 
          HE WAS FEARLESS ABOUT HIS WORK, ABOUT CHANGING THINGS, ABOUT PRINTING ERROR, AND THEN HOW ARE WE GONNA FIX IT? I MEAN, EVERYTHING WAS JUST VERY  , UM, AND DOABLE. 
          YES. 
          YEAH. 
          YOU KNOW, HE JUST, HE MADE IT SO DELIGHTFUL. 
          AND THE OTHER THING THAT I, I GOT TO WORK, THEN WE SORT OF MOVED ON TO ANOTHER BOOK. 
          THIS IS A, A POEM BY LISA WESTFORD PETERS, UM, UH, OCTOBER SMILED BACK, AND AGAIN, HE WAS WORKING WITH THESE DIFFERENT PAPERS, BUT, BUT THEN COMBINING, CUTTING THEM OUT AND DRAWING 'EM. 
          SO HE JUST WAS CONTINUALLY EXPERIMENTING, CONTINUALLY SORT OF PUSHING THE ENVELOPE AND SEEING WHAT ELSE HE COULD DO, HOW ELSE HE COULD PLAY. 
          UM, AND SO THAT WAS REALLY JUST ENLIGHTENING FOR ME, INSPIRING FOR ME TO WORK WITH SOMEBODY WHO WAS SO OPEN. 
          AND, UM, HE WAS CAREFUL, BUT HE WAS NOT OBSESSIVE, YOU KNOW, HE, HE, HE JUST KIND OF KEPT IT GOING AND MADE IT WORK. 
          UM, AND IT WAS THAT SORT OF A GOOD LIFE LESSON, I THINK, YOU KNOW, JUST KNOWING THAT YOU, YOU'LL JUST ALWAYS GET THROUGH IT. 
          YOU'LL ALWAYS, YOU KNOW, JUST DON'T BE AFRAID. 
          JUST KEEP GOING. 
          ENJOY IT, HAVE FUN. 
          DO IT WITH A SMILE. 
          UM, DON'T TAKE IT TOO SERIOUSLY, YOU KNOW? UM, AND THEN I JUST, I GUESS I, WOULD I TELL SAY SOMETHING ABOUT FAVORITE OR, SURE. 
          OKAY. 
          , I DON'T WANNA GO TOO LONG. 
          UM, I, JUST LOOKING AT THIS, I MEAN, I'VE LOVED THE BOOKS THAT I'VE WORKED ON WITH HIM. 
          I DIDN'T WORK ON THIS ONE, BUT, UM, MY ART DIRECTOR, NANETTE STEVENSON DID SEVEN BLIND MICE. 
          AND I DO FEEL LIKE THIS IS KIND OF A PERFECT CHILDREN'S BOOK, UM, BECAUSE IT IS, THE STORY ITSELF IS SO MUCH ABOUT LOOKING AT SEPARATE LITTLE PIECES AND, UM, USING YOUR SENSES TO UNDERSTAND THEM, BUT THEN WAITING UNTIL YOU SEE THE WHOLE, UM, PUTTING ALL THOSE SEPARATE PIECES TOGETHER, AND THEN, THEN YOU HAVE A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING, THEN YOU REALLY SEE WHAT THE WHOLE IS. 
          AND THAT IS ALSO JUST REALLY WHAT, NOT ONLY LIKE A STORY SHOULD BE, WHAT LIFE SHOULD BE, WHAT, UM, INTERPRETATION AND JUDGMENT AND CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE LIKE. 
          AND THEN JUST IF YOU LOOK AT THE WAY THE PICTURES ARE, ARE STRUNG TOGETHER, THEY BUILD IN SUCH A BEAUTIFUL WAY. 
          YOU KNOW, IT STARTS OUT WITH JUST THESE LITTLE HAIRS, AND THEN IT GOES THESE INTERPRETATIONS OF THE ELEPHANT'S LEGS AGAINST THIS BLACK STRIKING, BLACK GRAPHIC BACKGROUND. 
          UM, AND EACH MOUSE 
          [00:35:01]
EXPERIENCES THE ELEPHANT IN ITS OWN WAY, WITHIN ITS OWN LIMITATIONS. 
          AND EACH WAY IS BEAUTIFUL, BUT IT'S NOT THE WHOLE STORY AND IT'S NOT REALLY ACCURATE. 
          AND IT'S NOT UNTIL THE LAST LITTLE MOUSE GETS TO THE END AND GETS ALL THE WAY TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ELEPHANT AND SAYS, THERE'S SOMETHING, THE, SOMETHING IS AS STURDY AS A PILLAR, SUPPLE AS A SNAKE, WIDE AS A CLIFF, SHARP AS A SPEAR, BREEZY AS A FAN, RINGING AS A ROPE. 
          BUT ALTOGETHER, THE, SOMETHING IS AN ELEPHANT. 
          AND WHEN THE OTHER MICE RAN UP THE SIDE AND UP AND DOWN THE OTHER, ACROSS THE, SOMETHING FROM END TO END, THEY AGREED. 
          NOW THEY SAW TOO. 
          SO IT'S PERFECT. 
          OKAY. 
          SO, UM, I OF COURSE WAS A CHILDREN'S LIBRARIAN FOR MANY DECADES, AND I USED MANY OF HIS BOOKS AND THE HE RETOLD AESOP'S FABLES AND, AND HE RETOLD CHINESE FOLK TALES. 
          AND, YOU KNOW, I READ THEM WITH CHILDREN, BUT THIS, THE HOUSE THAT BABA BUILT WAS SOMETHING HE DID THAT COMPLETELY SURPRISED ME. 
          IT WAS SO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. 
          SO THIS IS ABOUT THE HOUSE THAT HIS FATHER BUILT DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR IN SHANGHAI TO KEEP THE FAMILY SAFE. 
          AND, UM, AND HE SAYS THAT HE WENT BACK MANY YEARS LATER, AND THIS IS HIS WHOLE FAMILY AND ANNE, SO THERE WERE FIVE CHILDREN IN THE FAMILY, AND THEN THERE WERE COUSINS, AND THEN THERE WERE REFUGEES FROM GERMANY, AND THEN, AND EVERYBODY GOT TAKEN IN, YOU KNOW, IT WAS, SO IT'S A STORY OF A SHARING WITH COMMUNITY ALSO. 
          UM, AND, YOU KNOW, YOU THINK IT, WELL, IT'S GOT PHOTOGRAPHS, BUT THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN THINGS OPEN UP AND YOU GO FURTHER INTO THE BOOK AND YOU SEE FINALLY THE, UM, THE FLOOR PLAN OF THE TWO FLOORS OF THE HOUSE. 
          I DIDN'T MARK THE PAGES UNFORTUNATELY. 
          SO, UM, IT'S GOT MAPS AND PHOTOGRAPHS. 
          AND WHEN HE WENT BACK WITH HIS SISTER MANY YEARS LATER, HE REALIZED THAT HIS FATHER HAD BUILT THE HOUSE WITH WALLS SO THICK THAT IT WAS A BOMB SHELTER, YOU KNOW, THAT HE HAD NEVER REALIZED THAT THEY ALSO, THEY HAD A POOL, THE WHOLE COMMUNITY, THE SURROUNDING COMMUNITY COULD USE UNTIL THEY COULDN'T AFFORD TO FILL IT WITH WATER. 
          AND, UM, SO I GUESS HIS FATHER'S SPIRIT OF GENEROSITY AND COMMUNITY I COULD SEE IN ED ALSO. 
          AND, UM, SO THAT'S WHY THIS IS SPECIAL TO ME. 
          UH, THEN WE WERE GOING TO ASK, SO I THINK EVERYBODY'S TALKED ABOUT THEIR FAVORITE BOOK ALREADY, SO MAYBE IT'S TIME FOR QUESTIONS FROM THE AUDIENCE. 
          ANY QUESTIONS? GARY KNOWS EVERYTHING ABOUT IT. 
          YEAH, AND LET ME JUST TELL YOU ANOTHER ANECDOTE. 
          HE TOLD ME, UH, OUR, MY SON, UH, TEACHES AT OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY IN COLUMBUS, OHIO. 
          AND WHEN THIS FIRST HAPPENED, I SAID, OH, YOU KNOW, MY SON IS FAR AWAY, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. 
          HE SAID, OH, I HAVE A VERY GOOD FRIEND IN COLUMBUS. 
          AND IT TURNS OUT, UM, IT WAS A, A WOMAN WHO WHEN SHE WAS YOUNG, WAS, UM, ONE OF THE REFUGEES WHO HIS FAMILY TOOK CARE OF IN THE HOUSE AND REMAINED A FRIEND FOR, YOU KNOW, UNTIL SHE DIED. 
          YEAH. 
          VERY AMAZING. 
          GREAT. 
          THAT'S GREAT. 
          I, THERE'S ONE THING, YOU KNOW, I JUST, ED WAS REALLY ALL ABOUT CONNECTIONS, AND HE WAS ALWAYS CONSCIOUSLY OR UNCONSCIOUSLY MAKING CONNECTIONS. 
          BUT IT'S SO INTERESTING TO ME THAT HERE, I MEAN, WE DIDN'T, I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW ANY OF THESE PEOPLE, AND YET I'M, I, I HAVE FOUND ALL OF THESE OVAL AND ALL OF THESE THREADS THAT, THAT CONNECT US. 
          AND, UM, YOU KNOW, EVEN THE, THE ODD, YOU KNOW, HAPPENSTANCE THAT IN MY FIRST JOB, ONE OF THE FREELANCERS WAS BILL MENA PHILOMENA WAS IN THE OFFICE, AND THAT'S HOW SHE MET ED. 
          AND PHILOMENA TOLD ME I SHOULD MOVE TO HASTINGS, 
          [00:40:01]
AND THAT'S WHY I'M IN HASTINGS . 
          AND, YOU KNOW, JUST ALL OF THESE THINGS THAT SORT OF, IT'S THOUGH, HE'S, HE'S WATCHING THIS AND HE IS LAUGHING, UM, BECAUSE THERE ARE THESE INCREDIBLE CONNECTIONS. 
          YEAH. 
          HE'S VERY MUCH IN THE CENTER OF A WEB. 
          YEAH, THAT'S DEFINITELY SPREAD ALL OVER HASTINGS AND, AND WAY BEYOND. 
          YES, IT'S FINE. 
          WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS, UM, I DIDN'T SPEND A LOT OF TIME EXPLAINING, BUT WHEN, WHEN YOU SEND THE MATERIALS OFF TO THE PRINTER TO PROOF YOU SEE PROOFS BEFORE IT ACTUALLY GOES TO PRESS, AND THEN, UM, YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO MAKE CORRECTIONS AND HAVE THE PRINTER CORRECT THINGS UNTIL IT'S AS GOOD AS IT CAN POSSIBLE. 
          UM, SO WE ADDRESSED AS MUCH AS WE COULD. 
          AND THEN THERE'S SOMEBODY, NOT SO MUCH NOW, UM, BUT IN, IN THOSE DAYS, THERE WOULD BE SOMEBODY FROM THE COMPANY, UM, IN, IN THIS, IN AT PUTNAM, IT WAS NANETTE STEVENSON, WHO WAS MY BOSS, WOULD GO TO CHINA AND OVERSEE PRINTING. 
          SO IF SOMETHING WENT AMISS, SHE COULD SAY, STOP THE PRESSES  AS THEY SAY, AND, AND ADDRESS IT AND HAVE IT FIXED. 
          UM, BUT USUALLY, YOU KNOW, BUT THEN THERE'S ALWAYS SOME SURPRISE, YOU KNOW, YOU THEN YOU HOPE YOU, OKAY, THE SHEETS, IT'S CALLED OKAYING THE SHEETS, THE PRINTER THEN KNOWS LIKE WHAT THEY HAVE TO MATCH WHEN THEY RUN THE WHOLE EDITION, AND THEY KEEP PULLING SHEETS FROM THE PRESS TO MAKE SURE IT'S MATCHING. 
          UM, AND IF SOMETHING STARTS TO GO WOBBLY, THEY STOP THE PRESSES AND THEY FIX IT AND THEY CONTINUE. 
          BUT EVERY NOW AND THEN YOU GET AN ERROR IN A BOOK. 
          WELL, I THINK HE HAD A REALLY CLEAR VISION, UM, THAT WE ALL REALLY RESPECTED, AND I, I UNDERSTOOD AND I WOULD ADVOCATE FOR, BUT HE WAS NOT UNREASONABLE. 
          YOU KNOW, HE, HE WOULD BE KIND OF ZEN ABOUT LETTING SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, IF IT WAS, WE DID EVERYTHING THAT WE COULD DO TO MAKE IT RIGHT. 
          YOU KNOW, AND THEN IN, IN THE END, HE WOULD, YOU KNOW, LIKE THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, I NOT, NOT THE AVERAGE PERSON NECESSARILY WOULD NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE IN THE COLORING. 
          I NOTICE IT BECAUSE MY EYES IS GEARED TOWARDS THAT. 
          UM, AND ED MIGHT LOOK AT IT AND SAY, WELL, IT'S OKAY, YOU KNOW, HE WOULDN'T GO CRAZY WITH THAT. 
          MOST OF US WOULD LOOK AT IT AND THINK IT WAS MEANT TO BE THAT. 
          YEAH, EXACTLY. 
          I LOVE THAT BOOK FOR YEARS AND I DIDN'T KNOW, YOU KNOW. 
          OKAY. 
          THE BACK OF THE AND BOOKS. 
          YEAH. 
          WERE THERE OTHER QUESTIONS? YES. 
          AH, OKAY. 
          I'M SURE ANTONIA CAN CAN SAY WHERE I THINK THE ERIC CARL MUSEUM HAS, HAS SOME OF HIS ORIGINAL WORK AND, AND THERE'S ONE A UNIVERSITY, RIGHT? YEAH, I WILL SAY THAT. 
          UM, WHEN, WHEN WE SOLD OUR HOUSE AND MOVED INTO AN APARTMENT, ALL OF A SUDDEN I HAD WALL SPACE, AND I KNEW THAT I HAD FRIENDS IN THE COMMUNITY WHO WERE ARTISTS, AND I WANTED A PIECE OF ED'S ARTWORK. 
          AND I CALLED HIM UP AND I 
          [00:45:01]
SAID, ED, I'D LIKE TO BUY SOMETHING OF YOURS FIRST. 
          HE GAVE ME A POSTER FROM CATS OR KATZ, WHICH IS ENORMOUS, WHICH IS WONDERFUL. 
          BUT I SAID, NO, ED, I REALLY, YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE, I'D LIKE TO BUY SOMETHING OF YOURS THAT, YOU KNOW, WAS NOT IN A BOOK. 
          AND HE LET ME COME IN TO HIS STUDIO AND SHOWED ME LIKE OVER A HUNDRED PIECES OF SKETCHES, YOU KNOW, IDEAS THAT HAD NEVER TURNED INTO A BOOK. 
          THERE WAS, UM, A WHOLE SERIES OF SKETCHES. 
          SOMEBODY WAS RESCUING ELEPHANTS IN AFRICA, THEY WERE MARAUDING THE CROPS AND SOMEONE, YOU KNOW, SO THERE WAS A PRESERVE THAT, THAT, UH, THIS GENTLEMAN HAD PUT TOGETHER, AND ED HAD ALL THESE DRAWINGS OF ELEPHANTS. 
          AND SO I ENDED UP, YOU KNOW, BUYING A PIECE OF, YOU KNOW, IT WAS JUST A SKETCH. 
          BUT, UM, HE HAD HUNDREDS OF DRAWINGS OF IDEAS THAT NEVER, YOU KNOW, GOT PUT INTO, UH, PRINTED BOOK. 
          AND HE HAD FLAT FILES FULL OF DUMMIES, DUMMY IDEAS AND GOOGLY EYES WHO GAVE HIM THE GOOGLY EYES. 
          I WANNA KNOW , HE FOUND THE, YOU KNOW, THOSE LITTLE ROUND THINGS WITH THE, HE, HE WENT THROUGH, HE JUST WENT THROUGH THIS PERIOD OF PUTTING GOOGLY EYES ON EVERYTHING, AND HE WOULD OPEN UP THE BOOK AND SHOW YOU THE GOOGLY EYED FISH AND HE'D LAUGH, . 
          IT WAS REALLY GREAT. 
          OKAY. 
          AH, YES. 
          WASN'T IT THE SOS HE KNEW, UM, PROFESSOR CHANG, WHO WAS HIS TAI CHI TEACHER, UM, I BELIEVE THIS HAD TO DO ALSO WITH JIM DEETER. 
          YOU KNOW, JIM DEETER. 
          JIM USED TO LIVE HERE. 
          HE BECAME, UM, I BELIEVE HE HAD BEEN STUDYING IN THE CITY WHERE PROFESSOR CHANG HAD HIS CLASSES, ED AND PHIL AMINA AND SEVERAL OTHER PEOPLE WHERE THE SENIOR STUDENTS. 
          AND, UH, AT ONE POINT, I THINK BECAUSE OF JIM DEETER, WHO LIVED, HE WAS A LAWYER, HE LIVED IN, UH, HASTINGS, AND HE BECAME ED'S MAIN, MAIN SENIOR STUDENT. 
          UH, THE PROFESSOR SAID, YOU NEED TO GO UP THERE, YOU NEED TO TAKE THIS, NOW, YOU'RE READY TO START, YOU KNOW, YOU AREN'T MY SENIOR STUDENTS. 
          JUST FOR FUN, IT'S TIME TO START TEACHING. 
          AND SO HE ASKED ED TO BRING TAI CHI TO HASTINGS, AND JIM DEETER FOUND HIM VARIOUS PLACES. 
          WE WERE AT THE AMERICAN LEGION, WE WERE AT THE GRACE CHURCH, AND, UH, AMERICAN LEGION AND THE OTHER ONE, BFW, VERY GOOD . 
          AND, UH, AND SO THAT'S, I THINK THAT'S, AND THEN I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE KNOW WHO A GORKY WHO A GORKY. 
          YES. 
          UM, BEFORE ED HAD MET, WELL, HE ACTUALLY KNEW MINA FROM BEING IN PROFESSOR CHANG'S CLASS. 
          AND, UM, HE WAS MARRIED FOR A TIME TO, UH, A GOKEY'S DAUGHTER, ONE OF HIS DAUGHTERS NAMED NATASHA. 
          AND THEY BOUGHT A HOUSE IN HASTINGS AFTER ED SORT OF SAID THIS, I LOVE THIS, THIS IS GREAT. 
          WE LOVE THE RIVER, LOVE THE LIGHT, LOVE THE PEOPLE. 
          HASTINGS WAS SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT IN THOSE DAYS. 
          IT WAS KIND OF MORE BOHEMIAN, IT WAS MUCH MORE AFFORDABLE, . 
          AND, UH, SO THEY BOUGHT A HOUSE TOGETHER. 
          PHIL, UH, FORGIVE ME. 
          NATASHA HAD HER GRAND PIANO IN THE HOUSE, AND JUST ABOUT THE TIME WHEN WE MET HIM IN 1979, THEY SEPARATED AND SHE WENT BACK TO LONDON AND ED KEPT THE HOUSE. 
          AND THEN HE JUST STARTED TEACHING AT BARRY'S PLACE. 
          HE WAS NEVER GONNA, YEAH, OKAY. 
          OKAY. 
          I GUESS WE'RE DONE. 
          OH, NO, SORRY. 
          YES. 
          GOOD MONDAYS USUALLY. 
          YEAH. 
          [00:50:10]
HE TURNED IT OVER TO, UM, IT'S IN THE COMMUNITY CENTER NOW, AND SEVERAL, AT LEAST TWO OF HIS SENIOR, HIS SENIOR STUDENTS OR HERE AT ED YOUNG DAY ONE IS STEVE HANH, WHO'S A, A DOCTOR. 
          HE'S BEEN A DOC. 
          HE'S A WONDERFUL GUY. 
          I'VE BEEN A DOCTOR FOR MANY YEARS IN THE CITY AT LARRY EINSTEIN . 
          AND, UH, THEY HAVE TAKEN THE REINS, SO FELLOW NAMED STEVE AND, AND, UM, LIAM AND SOMEONE ELSE THAT WE USED TO STUDY WITH ALSO WILL. 
          THAT'S RIGHT. 
          YES. 
          THOSE, AND AND I THINK THERE'S A FOURTH PERSON WHO MAY BE LIKE IN PART OF THAT GROUP, BUT, UH, I DON'T KNOW HER. 
          BUT, UH, YEAH, SO IT CONTINUES, YOU KNOW, AND, UH, PHIL AMINA WAS ALSO TEACHING AT A TIME, AND, UH, BUT ED GOT TO A POINT WHERE PHYSICALLY HIS LEGS, HE HAD A KNEE REPLACEMENT, TIRED. 
          THE SPIRIT WASN'T TIRED BODY. 
          HE SAT IN ON THE CLASSES. 
          YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH. 
          RIGHT. 
          YEAH. 
          OKAY. 
          UH, WELL LET YOU, YOU HAVE NOT ASKED SOMETHING, SO YES, WELL, THERE IS AN INTERESTING CONNECTION WITH THE MAN WHO WAS ED'S TEACHER, PROFESSOR, UH, CHANG MANCH. 
          UM, BECAUSE HE WAS KNOWN AS, AND ED TOLD US ABOUT THIS EARLY ON, HE WAS KNOWN AS A MASTER OF THE FIVE FIVE ARTS ED CHUNG. 
          AND SO THIS WAS POETRY. 
          HE, YOU KNOW, HE WAS CONSIDERED A MASTER OF THESE FORMS, POETRY, PAINTING,  THE GAME, CHINESE GAME, GO AND WHAT WAS THE FIFTH ONE? CALLIGRAPHY. 
          AND SO HE WAS RENOWNED, UH, HE LEFT CHINA BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED IN CHINA, AND HE MOVED TO TAIWAN AND HE TRAINED THE CHINESE, THE TAIWANESE ARMY IN TAI CHI, PROFESSOR CHANG. 
          AND, BUT HE WAS RENOWNED AS A PAINTER. 
          AND I REMEMBER A STORY ED TOLD, HE SAID, THIS FAMILY THAT MADE PAPER IN TAIWAN CAME TO HIM ONE DAY AND SAID, WE HAVE A PIECE OF PAPER THAT'S SEVERAL CENTURIES OLD, AND WE'D LIKE THE PROFESSOR TO, TO, UH, DO A PAINTING, YOU KNOW, ON IT. 
          AND SO IT WAS SUCH A BIG PIECE. 
          AND THE PROFESSOR WAS, WAS A PRETTY DIMINUTIVE GUY. 
          UH, BUT THEY BUILT HIM A PLATFORM AND SO THAT HE COULD STAND ON THE PLATFORM ON TOP OF THIS SIX BY SIX FOOT, I DON'T KNOW HOW BIG IT WAS, PIECE OF PAPER AND USED A BRUSH. 
          ED SHOWED ME THE PICTURE. 
          I THINK HE EVEN MAYBE HAD THE BRUSH. 
          IT WAS ABOUT FIVE FEET LONG. 
          IT LOOKED LIKE A MOP. 
          AND PROFESSOR WOULD DIP THIS IN. 
          HE WOULD ONE SHOT, WHICH WE COULDN'T MAKE A MISTAKE, RIGHT? THIS WAS SEVERAL CENTURIES OLD PIECE OF PAPER, . 
          AND HE DID THIS ONE SHOT JUST, I'VE SEEN PICTURES. 
          WAS IT, UH, SO THERE, YOU KNOW, PROFESSOR UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WAS A CONNECTION BETWEEN IT CHI AS AN EXPRESSION OF DAOISM, UNITY OF ALL FAME, BEAUTY OF ALL . 
          AND MAY I JUST ADD PICTURE BOOKS ARE THAT, THAT'S WHAT PICTURE BOOKS ARE. 
          OF COURSE, OF COURSE. 
          IDEALLY, THEY'RE A DANCE BETWEEN ALL OF THESE ELEMENTS. 
          THEIR, THEIR POETRY, THEIR DISCOVERY, WE'VE TALKED A WHOLE LOT IMPLICITLY ABOUT DISCOVERY. 
          THEY'RE, UM, AN ART FORM UNDERESTIMATED BECAUSE THEY'RE AIMED AT CHILDREN. 
          BUT WE ARE ALL CHILDREN. 
          AND, AND I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE HIGHEST OUTCOMES. 
          YES. 
          THANK YOU.
* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.